We've covered every kind of writing that gets submitted to Evil Editor. So, should we
a. discontinue Old Beginnings?
b. start from the beginning and run through them again with new titles?
c. become more specific (cozy mystery/hard-boiled detective; paranormal romance/historical romance; epic fantasy/urban fantasy; etc.)?
39 comments:
I'd love to see sub-genre offerings.
I'd like to see some beginnings from my favorite genre, Hardboiled Paranormal Urban Fantasy. Or, H-PUF as we fans often refer to it. While oft overlooked by the 'gatekeepers' of fiction, we're a grassroots movement that can't be ignored! Look for us at the upcoming H-PUFcon.
Well, considering how many of these old beginnings a LOT of minions have said they wouldn't continue reading, I'd be curious to see what the minions have considered worth continuing to read.
How about having people submit the first 150 to ONE, just ONE, of their favorite novels? Then you can post a few at a time for people to comment on. Then we at least know that people here have read and liked them...unlike the chick lit entries.
I vote for more specific categories.
Old Beginnings are big fun -- don't stop!
Saralee
Yeah, um... I don't know.
Why don't you ask readers to submit their last lines!?!? Or ask readers to submit the fourth paragraph from the third page in their book and minions have to guess what the plot is about, guess the genre, something along those lines?
that'll be fun.
i'd like to see more specific beginnings, but i think 3 at a time is plenty. it's too hard to follow discussions about 5 different beginnings when there are 30 or 40 responses.
also at times i'm unclear whether the beginnings start from the body of the work or the prologue. surely the prologue is what is read first and should be the opening for the purposes of the discussion? actually i confess i sometimes read the last page first but that's another story
Talia Mana - Lots of people don't read the prologue, so I think it makes more sense to start at Chapter One.
How about opening the books at random and grabbing the first 150 words you see? That's what I do if the title and back copy suggest a book may be worth buying.
Or how about giving us the back copy? I don't even look inside a book unless I'm happy with the back copy. :)
I can't help wondering what the point of this is except to realize that you can start a book a million ways from Sunday and somehow (maybe more due to luck than skill) still get published. Which probably also proves that editors (evil and non-evil alike) have no standard criteria. But having figured this out, maybe it's time to move on to something more interesting.
Maybe this is outside the realm of possibility, but I'd love to see the "old beginnings" mixed in unlabeled with the "new beginnings". I think it's too easy for people to decide something is publishable when they know it actually *was* published.
My secret desire is to see people unknowingly call Faulkner "slow" or Nabokov "overwrought".
Better yet, throw in some not-so-great but best-selling authors -- Ayn Rand? -- and see what the minions make of them.
I like the idea of more specific categories!
Also, I wonder if there is merit in this idea for a new twist...
...have minions send in the beginnings of an unpublished work and list them mixed in with published beginnings in the same genre, and have the minions guess: Which ones are published and which ones are un-published? And then list their comments about each entry. It might be interesting to note if our work blends in among the "professionals", or reads better or very obviously worse?
In the end, you could list the source for the book or if it was a minion's beginning. I think it might help people look at the work in a more impartial manner if they don't know if it is Stephen King or Joe Blow down the block.
I'm not suggesting this INSTEAD of what EE already has going, but maybe even an occasional feature. I would be willing to submit my beginning to challenge in the romance genre. LOL.
Or maybe I'm just out to lunch. That happens.
I don't care much for Old Beginnings. Just personal preference. :)
Holy Crap dreamer, were we seperated at birth? LOL
Yes, the idea of mixing old beginnings and new ones, and letting us minions try to guess would be fun indeed!
WV pebgkh: drowning pebbles?
Hawkowl, sometimes back copy can be very deceptive. Just finished a novel where the back copy conflict, trying to rescue a friend from a sadistic serial killer (is there any other kind) took up the last two chapters of the book. What should have been an exciting book was basically just people talking.
And then there's the misreads. I once got a book, all excited because the woman was sent to be the magician's assassin. Until I started reading it and realized I'd read it wrong and she was his assistant. Was I disappointed.
To get back on point, I think everyone has a great idea but it's a lot of work for EE. Still, if he doesnt mind...
I'm not a big reader of the old beginnings, but I'd love to see some examples of the different subgenres. It would help me target my subs better.
And I don't give up on books easily. The beginnings wouldn't stop me unless there were several misspellings/editing problems
Dreamer has a point.
I dunno, EE. Do you feel that the Old Beginnings have achieved what you set out to achieve? Whatever that may have been. I'm inclined to think you were teaching us minions some kind of lesson, but I'm not sure if I learnt it. I am sure I'm not learning anything from them now, although that doesn't stop me participating. Social animal!
However, I've started to feel like the Evil GodFairy, always coming along to say 'don't like this, don't like that'. Which is okay in a bookshop when I only have my husband to torment, if that, but here?
I have no interest in guessing what's published and what's not, as it just sounds like an exercise in finger-pointing at those who (inevitably) get it wrong.
What would be gained by doing more Old Beginnings? Simply making sure there's always some for new minions to learn from? Is there anything new to learn from looking at the sub-genres? I'm in the dark here.
Okay, I guess I'm in an overly thoughtful mood atm. Maybe if I understood the point of the exercise, I could see my way to a more concise answer.
C!
Starting with H-PUF (so I can find out what that is exactly).
Plus, I nth the suggested guessing game. Delayed disclosure re: posted mixed rookies and oldies. Yeah.
I like the idea of the minions sending in the first 150 words of their personal favorites and everyone gets to guess what they are and then pick them apart.
And I'd like to see a mix of genres.
I love the old beginnings!
My first choice would be openings of debuts, especially recent ones. They'd be especially helpful to those of us in search of publication.
My second choice would be sub-genres, my third choice would be to go back through again.
Mixing minions' work in with them would be fun, especially if EE waited a day to post the authors!
I always read prologues.
I'd like to see more old beginnings, but two or three at a time. And maybe devote a day to them. Like every Tuesday.
I think that it is good to see what "established" authors write, to be exposed to another's writings.
Not all authors follow the same rules. It's instructional to see the differences.
I too like the idea of minions sending in the first 150 of their favorites. If the readership is big enough, you could declare a genre or theme and then have people submit their favorite of that genre. Or you could just let people send what they love.
As to the point about these published novels with sometimes mediocre or lousy starts, the agents and editors interested in them possibly do read past the 150 unless they think the start is completely miserable. Also, they know what they requested. They already know they asked for a book about half-elves who wear $700 shoes, so they have some idea what to expect. In fact, they read 50 other queries last week about half-elven fiction so they are comparing to what other authors are doing as they read. We are just coming in, frequently clueless about the entire genre, and saying whether or not it appeals. It's a different task.
Being serious (for a change) I agree with those who say that the Old Beginnings have run their course. I think we'd all agree that a) not every published work has a humdinger of a beginning, 2) there's a heck of a lot of ways to begin a book and iii) that you can't always judge a book by its first 150 words anyways.
Maybe instead of beginnings EE could post other bits of published works, like five examples of really snappy dialogue or five examples of info-dumping done well.
Meh, if you want to know what established writers write, rumour has it there's a lot of libraries and bookshops out there. I don't come here to get information that's easily available elsewhere. Course, that could just be me.
My opinion is that the old beginnings don't generate as much discussion as I thought they would. The lesson--a novel can begin any which way if well written throughout--is learned.
How's about the beginning of the first three NY Times bestsellers each week, hardcover and paperback?
I vote for 'c' and minions' favourite beginnings.
wv: ikybkpep icky book people?
c) get more specific!
I especially love the idea of hard boiled detectives and cozy mysteries.
I like dreamer's idea of mixing old & new beginnings, that is, throwing in an old beginning from time to time for people to add the next 150 words to and then letting a few days worth of comments pass before--surprise!--admitting that it was published material. Short story beginnings as well as novel starts would work for this.
I vote for C! Maybe that'll help me figure out which books go in which subcategories. (*ducks*)
Reading Old Beginings with your comments helps me stay focused on what I like in a begining. This is especially helpful as I read so many New Beginings.
I like seeing the contrast between polished and unpolished work. I'd rather see the contrast than play a guessing game.
I appreciate EE typing them out for us. It's interesting to see older titles amoung the newer ones--different tastes for modern times.
Maybe instead of beginnings EE could post other bits of published works, like five examples of really snappy dialogue or five examples of info-dumping done well.
Yanno, that's a pretty good idea.
I like these, EE, but vote for 3 rather than 5 at a time.
Urban fantasy, pretty please? (I'm a little biased ;))
How about mixing the subgenre idea, with the mixing old/new beginnings idea, plus the idea of reducing the number of entries? So we'd have 2 old beginning H-PUF along with 1 or 2 new ones, for instance.
Is H-PUF really a genre and not a rap singer? I'm sure I have one of his disks....
I've loved the old beginnings, but yes, maybe time for something new. Both minions faves and the mixed bag of minions vs published works would work for me. It's all great learning.
If you do go for sub-genre offerings, maybe you could write a few words intro explaining exactly what these sub-genres are. I'd love to know what a cozy mystery is, for instance.
LOVE the Old Beginnings. Don't drop them, please? The comment pages that these beginnings generate are quite educational. Also, it never hurts to have a fresh look on the familiar works of fiction.
I like the idea of getting into the subgenres most. Mixing old and new also sound like fun (particularly the same genres/styles).
And I'm with "a reader 10:24" on the shrot story openings. It would be interesting to see how they compare.
Dave said: Not all authors follow the same rules. It's instructional to see the differences.
I agree and the idea of limiting the examples to three would be helpful. It does get difficult discussing five at a time.
However, the idea of posting other bits of published work like snappy dialogue and "good info-dumping" appeals to me.
To make it easier for you, E.E., why not put out a call for readers' favorites? Let us do part of the work by sending in our favorite excerpts (title and author must be included).
EE is the Master and we the Minions, so whatever he wants to do is fine with me.
Having said that - if Old Beginnings continue in any form, I'd like to see EE delay posting the author/title information until after we have all embarrassed ourselves critiquing books we loved reading. Could be funnier!
Mocking the minions is, as everyone in Hollywood knows, one of the principal activities of evil overlords.
Also, I think it might be more interesting to see only first published works. The rules for those seem different than for authors with a record of success.
Finally, I agree that it could be entertaining to mix Minion beginnings with published material. To avoid creating a burden for the beloved EE, perhaps it could be done like the Guess the Plot and New Beginnings: post your beginning, and let EE & the Minions select published works for comparison.
EVIL MINION: Uh, sir?
EVIL EDITOR: What now?
EVIL MINION: Are you feeling alright? Is there, maybe, something you need? A faerie and a pair of tweezers, perhaps? A dog to kick?
EVIL EDITOR: Get to the point, or I will kill you so fast—
EVIL MINION: It's just that, sir, it seems to me that the Old Beginnings thing isn't really all that evil. It's just kinda, you know, naughty.
EVIL EDITOR: Do you have a better idea?
EVIL MINION: I don't mean to presume—
EVIL EDITOR: Yes you do. Spit it out.
EVIL MINION: Have you considered turning it into a game of Spot The Ringer?
EVIL EDITOR (to offscreen): Can I get some smarter minions, please?
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