Oil! (There Will Be Blood): Socialism vs. Capitalism; corrupt big business; little guy against the big machine.
An academic would probably phrase those differently... ;)
So, while it may be painful to agree with an obnoxious anonymous, I do believe that fiction is not basically about sex and violence, even though sex and violence preoccupy fictional characters to the same degree they preoccupy all of us.
Personally, I really want to believe that when I write something, I'm not simply writing about fucking and fighting...
Point taken, iago. I don't now who you are (obviously), but I enjoy talking with you - and I hoped you were gonna be reading today.
I phrased my sentence in a way that wasn't as clear as it should've been, to make a point in a facetious, humorous way - and it looks like I fell flat backwards with it.
I agree with you. When I write about, as you say, fighting and fucking, there's quite a bit more going on behind the scenes. There always is.
Hi talpianna - in all honesty- I haven't read any of these guys since I was forced to in college. But I have a decently good guess that there's some sex and violence in there, as there is in, for instance, the Bible and in Bill Shakespeare's stuff. Am I close there?
An aside: Ian McEwan wrote, in my opinion, one of the most sensual, meaningful (as in 'not just about sex') love/sex scenes ever written in the English language in Atonement. Gorgeous - in the fully explored meaning of the word.
I just went to look. It begins on page 126, in the paperback version.
No, I got the humour. Actually, I'd been brewing on this point for -- I guess it's a couple of days, right? -- and just took the opportunity to fling my two cents into the ring.
I enjoyed Atonement too. I also enjoyed Saturday, though perhaps not as much; Saturday used violence to carry it's theme, interestingly.
So, while it may be painful to agree with an obnoxious anonymous, I do believe that fiction is not basically about sex and violence, even though sex and violence preoccupy fictional characters to the same degree they preoccupy all of us.
Yeah, that sounds great and all, but she said revolves around sex and/or violence (which they all do). Not about. Hate to harp on the definitions of words and stuff, but you're disagreeing with something she didn't say.
And anyway, you can want to believe something all you want, but eventually it's all about fighting or fucking. Sometimes both. It's like six degrees of separation or Kevin Bacon or whoever. Anything can be broken down to fighting or fucking. Just depends on how hard you wanna hit it.
She said: "Fiction, basically, is about sex and violence."
Personally, I'm disagreeing that fiction is basically about sex and violence. I don't think that's true. I'm not disagreeing that most (all? I'm not convinced) fiction contains some degree of sex and or violence, or revolves around the same. I'm disagreeing that that's what it's basically about.
Maybe it's semantics. Maybe I'm disagreeing with my interpretation of what was written, rather than what was actually meant. Don't think it matters, really, because It's not personal and it's all subjective.
I agree it doesn't really matter, but unless you're continuing a discussion from somewhere else, her first post clearly says "revolves around." Which is not the same as "about."
OK, I see it. You're talking about Robin's first comment here, but we're actually continuing a dialogue from an earlier post, where the phrase I'm talking about first cropped up...
I'd say that sounds about right - it sure works on my favorites, as I sit here and think about them.
Same thing with the sex and violence thing. I can't see the big surprise there, actually.
And I think both blogless and iago are right -
Here's blogless: "eventually it's all about fighting or fucking. Sometimes both. It's like six degrees of separation or Kevin Bacon or whoever. Anything can be broken down to fighting or fucking. Just depends on how hard you wanna hit it."
and here's iago: "I'm disagreeing that fiction is basically about sex and violence. I don't think that's true. I'm not disagreeing that most (all? I'm not convinced) fiction contains some degree of sex and or violence, or revolves around the same. I'm disagreeing that that's what it's basically about."
I'm in the middle of these two positions, in that I do feel quite a bit of fiction boils down, in its essence, to sex and violence, but the resonance of that fiction, if there is going to be any, has to do with a something more - as, for instance - the consequences, secrets, truth, lies, that iago mentioned regarding Atonement.
So - they can be broken right down, in my opinion, as blogless said, to sex and violence, and yet by their very nature, they are about more, at the same time, as iago said.
I could be had, so to speak, on "conflict and resolution".
I don't actually feel the need for everyone to agree, because ultimately any piece of fiction is about what it's about to you. And that's one of the things I love about it.
How about if we agree that we're simply wired differently, with certain semantic inclinations?
I'm sticking with the sexual, and with humankind's propensity toward violence, because my inclination runs toward the blunt. My guess is, that's why blogless and I agree on this point - because he may be wired the same way.
The narrator/protagonist in the first chapter of the novel I'm working like a crazy woman to finish says at one point: "It's better just to know the truth, and to get the knowing part over with. It's when you don't do that, that's when there's trouble."
And you use the words conflict and resolution, because maybe you're inclined toward a more grace-filled approach.
And yeah, blogless, you and iago are both late to the make-up sex part, way, way, late, and you know that stuff is like the old coffee commercial woman says:
"Eeet's the reeechest kind."
Night Night. Let's do this again sometime soon. It's fun. If you guys saw what a DC 'suit' I am during the day, you'd really laugh your asses off.)
31 comments:
Interestingly (is that even a word?) every single one of these revolves around sex and/or violence. How about that?
Well, two of these are original screenplays (Juno, Michael Clayton).
Of the novels, I would argue that none of them are about sex or violence, even though sex and/or violence may be strong themes within the storyline.
No Country for Old Men: Good vs Evil; Choices one makes shape the life one leads.
Atonement: Imagination, Secrets, truth, lies, consequences, guilt, forgiveness.
Oil! (There Will Be Blood): Socialism vs. Capitalism; corrupt big business; little guy against the big machine.
An academic would probably phrase those differently... ;)
So, while it may be painful to agree with an obnoxious anonymous, I do believe that fiction is not basically about sex and violence, even though sex and violence preoccupy fictional characters to the same degree they preoccupy all of us.
Personally, I really want to believe that when I write something, I'm not simply writing about fucking and fighting...
Robin, can you name a play by Aeschylus, Sophocles, or Euripides that contains neither sex nor violence?
Point taken, iago. I don't now who you are (obviously), but I enjoy talking with you - and I hoped you were gonna be reading today.
I phrased my sentence in a way that wasn't as clear as it should've been, to make a point in a facetious, humorous way - and it looks like I fell flat backwards with it.
I agree with you. When I write about, as you say, fighting and fucking, there's quite a bit more going on behind the scenes. There always is.
Hi talpianna - in all honesty- I haven't read any of these guys since I was forced to in college. But I have a decently good guess that there's some sex and violence in there, as there is in, for instance, the Bible and in Bill Shakespeare's stuff. Am I close there?
An aside: Ian McEwan wrote, in my opinion, one of the most sensual, meaningful (as in 'not just about sex') love/sex scenes ever written in the English language in Atonement. Gorgeous - in the fully explored meaning of the word.
I just went to look. It begins on page 126, in the paperback version.
No, I got the humour. Actually, I'd been brewing on this point for -- I guess it's a couple of days, right? -- and just took the opportunity to fling my two cents into the ring.
I enjoyed Atonement too. I also enjoyed Saturday, though perhaps not as much; Saturday used violence to carry it's theme, interestingly.
I have yet to read On Chesil Beach, but... ;)
So, while it may be painful to agree with an obnoxious anonymous, I do believe that fiction is not basically about sex and violence, even though sex and violence preoccupy fictional characters to the same degree they preoccupy all of us.
Yeah, that sounds great and all, but she said revolves around sex and/or violence (which they all do). Not about. Hate to harp on the definitions of words and stuff, but you're disagreeing with something she didn't say.
And anyway, you can want to believe something all you want, but eventually it's all about fighting or fucking. Sometimes both. It's like six degrees of separation or Kevin Bacon or whoever. Anything can be broken down to fighting or fucking. Just depends on how hard you wanna hit it.
She said: "Fiction, basically, is about sex and violence."
Personally, I'm disagreeing that fiction is basically about sex and violence. I don't think that's true. I'm not disagreeing that most (all? I'm not convinced) fiction contains some degree of sex and or violence, or revolves around the same. I'm disagreeing that that's what it's basically about.
Maybe it's semantics. Maybe I'm disagreeing with my interpretation of what was written, rather than what was actually meant. Don't think it matters, really, because It's not personal and it's all subjective.
Oh, anon 8:47 was me...
I agree it doesn't really matter, but unless you're continuing a discussion from somewhere else, her first post clearly says "revolves around." Which is not the same as "about."
So if Iago, Robin, and Blogless are fighting....
Hmm. Then I think we're arguing about two different discussions, because I just quoted verbatim the phrase that got me thinking...
OK, I see it. You're talking about Robin's first comment here, but we're actually continuing a dialogue from an earlier post, where the phrase I'm talking about first cropped up...
So if Iago, Robin, and Blogless are fighting....
Hey... If you're hanging around waiting to watch the make-up sex...
but we're actually continuing a dialogue from an earlier post...
OK. Now it makes sense.
Damn.
I just got back from a meeting and it looks like I've been missing some fun stuff from three of my very, very favorite people around this place.
Hi blogless - you sweetie - if you have time, check out the Face-Lift about the scientist/physician, a few posts back. You'll see the background.
I've got another deal to run to now- I'll be back later, for the make-up sex, if nothing else.
Fucking and fighting.
Figures.
I'm here. Did I miss the make-up sex?
Hey Sarah-
The guys left us, as they say, high and dry. And this was such a fun discussion!
And Hi Brenda - hope you're doing fine.
Hi Robin,
I was following it avidly. Reminded me of the supposition that all books can boil down to 2 plots - a stranger arrives and a hero takes a journey.
Hi Sarah,
I'd say that sounds about right - it sure works on my favorites, as I sit here and think about them.
Same thing with the sex and violence thing. I can't see the big surprise there, actually.
And I think both blogless and iago are right -
Here's blogless:
"eventually it's all about fighting or fucking. Sometimes both. It's like six degrees of separation or Kevin Bacon or whoever. Anything can be broken down to fighting or fucking. Just depends on how hard you wanna hit it."
and here's iago:
"I'm disagreeing that fiction is basically about sex and violence. I don't think that's true. I'm not disagreeing that most (all? I'm not convinced) fiction contains some degree of sex and or violence, or revolves around the same. I'm disagreeing that that's what it's basically about."
I'm in the middle of these two positions, in that I do feel quite a bit of fiction boils down, in its essence, to sex and violence, but the resonance of that fiction, if there is going to be any, has to do with a something more - as, for instance - the consequences, secrets, truth, lies, that iago mentioned regarding Atonement.
So - they can be broken right down, in my opinion, as blogless said, to sex and violence, and yet by their very nature, they are about more, at the same time, as iago said.
I love it when everyone's right.
Actually there's a lot less S&V in kids books though some of them contain their fair share.
Sorry -- didn't mean to leave you high and dry; I had to sleep. Different time zone, I'm afraid...
Could we all agree if we changed the terms to "love and conflict"?
I could be had, so to speak, on "conflict and resolution".
I don't actually feel the need for everyone to agree, because ultimately any piece of fiction is about what it's about to you. And that's one of the things I love about it.
Hi iago,
How about if we agree that we're simply wired differently, with certain semantic inclinations?
I'm sticking with the sexual, and with humankind's propensity toward violence, because my inclination runs toward the blunt. My guess is, that's why blogless and I agree on this point - because he may be wired the same way.
The narrator/protagonist in the first chapter of the novel I'm working like a crazy woman to finish says at one point: "It's better just to know the truth, and to get the knowing part over with. It's when you don't do that, that's when there's trouble."
And you use the words conflict and resolution, because maybe you're inclined toward a more grace-filled approach.
Works for me.
Oh, Iago, you had me at hello.
Hello, McKoala...
Robin - sounds good. I have no dount that I am indeed wired, ah, differently...
"dount"?!
Sorry, I meant to say "donut".
Sorry, somebody mentioned make-up sex and I forgot what we were talking about. But I'll fight you for that donut.
That fucking donut is mine.
iago, I don't doubt you on your donuts.
And yeah, blogless, you and iago are both late to the make-up sex part, way, way, late, and you know that stuff is like the old coffee commercial woman says:
"Eeet's the reeechest kind."
Night Night. Let's do this again sometime soon. It's fun. If you guys saw what a DC 'suit' I am during the day, you'd really laugh your asses off.)
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