Movie studios are always coming up with campy titles for farcical movies. You know, like 8 Heads in a Duffle Bag, Snakes on a Plane, Attack of the Killer Tomatoes.
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11 comments:
Buffy, I agree with you a thousand percent in the other thread in which use of the word "had" is debated. A writer should use it appropriately, but it's silly for others to enforce a blanket rule that its use is ALWAYS bad.
This illustrates why I no longer take amateur writing sites seriously anymore (although I still read here because EE is so funny). It's the blind leading the blind. You have one unpublished writer who doesn't seem to be any better than the other unpublished writer, yet he/she goes on and on about his/her own subjective rules, as if it's gotten him/her anywhere.
Usually it appears that commenters look to see who wrote something before deciding whether to go negative or positive. If it's somebody who comes of as "all-knowing", positive comments abound. If not, subjective nitpicking rules the day.
I go by Steve King's basic rule, which is that a writer should write his book alone, with the door closed, and then show it. If you try to write somebody else's book, it'll be nobody's book.
So your message, Anonymous 11:16, is that if you are published and well educated, your comments are good. AND if you are unpublished and not educated (I guess that means no MFA) your comments are crap. Is that the case you're making?
Smiles on Sunday
Hmm. I'm posting this anonymously, but I am a regular contributor to this site. I've had some short stories published in the past, and this year I started sending out a couple of novels on submission. Does my unpub'd stat make me unqualified to voice an opinion on style or grammar?
Well, I also have 20+ years as a writer and editor in the corporate world, which makes me far more money than any book deal is likely to earn me. I also taught freshman comp while working on my M.A. in English.
Interestingly, I once had a published writer do a blind read of a few pages of one of my WIPs. Their conclusion: That I should check out a book or a community college course on basic grammar. Uh, no. This published writer didn't know the difference between mechanics and style, or between objective (grammar) edits and subjective (style) critique.
You make it sound like unpublished equals clueless, and published means having a clue.
Lively debate on topics and getting other opinions on matters can help the process IF a newbie keeps in mind that most of what's discussed is opinion, no matter how opinionated the commentor seems. In the end, it is the writer who makes the decision what, and whose, advice works or doesn't work for them.
And what works for you and Stephen King isn't what necessarily works for everyone. For those who have learned how to write and self-edit, great. For those who are still learning, though, a critique group may be just what they need to make that transition.
I just found this discussion. I agree in principle and, somewhat, on more-than-simply-principle, with you, anon 11:16 am, that...
"...it appears that commenters look to see who wrote something before deciding whether to go negative or positive. If it's somebody who comes of as "all-knowing", positive comments abound. If not, subjective nitpicking rules the day."
I agree with you. This happens frequently. And I agree that the 'corrections' received are sometimes silly. Recently, I was corrected for using "laying" instead of "lying". Apparently it's not considered possible by some people to use language in an opening that fits a character's language usage.
But this isn't always the way it goes here, or I would no longer be coming back. That or I'd be stopping in to read EE without commenting (which is what I did for a while, after I first found this site).
I also believe, as you do, this is true: “I go by Steve King's basic rule, which is that a writer should write his book alone, with the door closed, and then show it. If you try to write somebody else's book, it'll be nobody's book." That said, I have to say I enjoy coming out of the writing closet myself, and putting a few pieces here, to see how they are perceived. As the openings I’ve had here constitute a very, very slim minority of what I’ve written, it’s a little bit of a relief to relax that rule a little, and experience a feeling of community.
I don’t believe in critique groups per se. I see what you mean about “everybody’s book”.
In a book I found only late this spring (I’m late to many parties) – Betsy Lerner’s amazing work, The Forest for the Trees, she mentions a phenomenon that I’m afraid of – that of being sucked into a vortex of sameness by participating in a class or group that, by definition, assigns you the task of sameness – of training to one standard of what is considered worthy prose. I’m afraid I’ll lose the voice I’ve worked to develop.
But I feel like EE’s site is not so much a critique group as much as it is a disparate group of people who care about writing and are working along at various points along the writing spectrum. Sense of humor required. I like that. And there are people, or personas of people anyway, that I’ve met here, that I really like and enjoy. It’s why I’m still here.
That, and I can keep my writing to myself, and not, all at the same time.
Hi anon 1:12 - "Lively debate on topics and getting other opinions on matters can help the process IF a newbie keeps in mind that most of what's discussed is opinion, no matter how opinionated the commentor seems. In the end, it is the writer who makes the decision what, and whose, advice works or doesn't work for them."
I agree. I do think, however, that some opinions are quite strident, and couched in language which reads quite a bit like the person commenting may not be aware that their opinion is just that, an opinion. I guess this is what you touched on with the "opinionated" discussion above.
I'm the self-edit type, too, who is just learning the value of socializing work with a disparate group. One of the queries I sent in to EE had already pulled its weight right out the door with a request for the full from my dream publishing house. The editor's enthusiasm was incredible (her response, in its entirety: "OK, send. Hard copy only!" Notice the exclam. How many of YOU have gotten an exclamation point from an editor?). That was back in January. Still waiting for the rejection -- no, I mean the contract! The query has also garnered numerous partial and full requests from agents, so it was a good query in that it did its job.
I groused and grumbled at the feedback it got from the minions. Some of it I tossed never to look at again. But some of the criticism repeated by two or three or more people I reluctantly realized I should consider. Based on the feedback, I revised the original query and came up with a much stronger letter. The first use I got from it was to include it as the hook opening in my synopsis when I got requests. Since then, I've sent it out as a stand-alone query a couple of times.
So, I self-edited and sent my original query out. It was successful at its job and validated I had a pretty good grasp of what I was doing. BUT after I socialized it here, I produced an even better product.
The trick is being discerning enough to know, as anon 1:12 says, "what, and whose, advice works or doesn't work for them."
Like Robin, I come back for the sense of community and for the people/personas I click with. I would be the monster no one wants to partner with in a critique group, and too picky to accept anybody as my partner. So this site works for me. If I'm one of the strident voices, I do not apologize, but caution everyone to remember whether I preface any of my comments with IMO or not, that's all they are. One person's opinions. The beauty is, no one need listen if they don't want to. For my part, this arrogant gal is learning a thing or two by participating here. And for that, I thank each of you for expressing any opinions at all :o)
Church Lady has some grammar opinions herself! ;-)
We can't all be EE.
That's why he invented a minion status. However, I'd like to see a more stratified minion status.
Lowest category would be "blind leading the blind"
Next to lowest category would be "addicted to had"
Middle category would be "POV questioners"
Next to highest category would be "barely minion."
Highest category and the most difficult to attain would be the "exalted minion."
I am, solely of course, "exalted." Most of you are the "blind leading the blind."
I carry my burden silently.
Cheers,
Hi church lady -
1- I miss you being takoda.
2- Your categories gave me a good chuckle. Maybe EE could provide some guidelines - what it takes to reach exalted status. Bet it's harder than hell.
I agree with you, phoenix. This is a good place to be to achieve "critique and yet not critique group-ness".
Hi Robin, Thanks! I miss Takoda also. She's my real personality. But being crotchety can be fun!
I love coming here and seeing the feedback. I agree that if you start to get a consensus on certain points, like Phoenix said, it's time to put your own ego/opinions aside and take a harder look.
I belong to a wonderful online critique group. There are 4 of us, each with a strong voice. We bring different editing skills to the table, and the matriarch (Hi there girlfriend!) is a wise and published writer. I couldn't imagine not getting their feedback on my writing. Even if something is in pretty good condition, they add value in suggesting extra details, etc. And I consider which of their suggestions I'm able to keep using my story's voice.
Phoenix, even if you are 'picky,' having a critique group online lessens that feeling. You don't see the crestfallen face when you say a certain passage doesn't work. So it's easier to be honest.
Anyway, I am addicted to the community on this blog.
Cheers,
Church Lady (aka Takoda)
Hey, what are you folks doing hiding away in he--
Whoa!
Hey Minions (status to be determined)! I just caught this thread and I found it fascinating! Robin and Phx -- so nice to read and agree with you! I suspect I may be in the "strident" category, but I am also solidly in the IMHO category.
I keep coming back here because Evil has enchanted my computer, and I can't resist his twisted humor, and he reminds me of my first composition teacher.
Churchlady, the anons, and the guys that aren't here (I guess they had not found out about this discussion) always good to know you're all up for reading another version of another query.
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