tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post1109439044505270637..comments2024-03-26T18:28:06.391-04:00Comments on Evil Editor: Point of ViewEvil Editorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-52214263161709867832007-06-16T00:23:00.000-04:002007-06-16T00:23:00.000-04:00Hope my colon's healed up by then.MEHope my colon's healed up by then.<BR/><BR/>MEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-23162228237808014472007-06-15T20:09:00.000-04:002007-06-15T20:09:00.000-04:00Sure, why not? In a while.Sure, why not? In a while.Evil Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-12820637815081012852007-06-15T19:48:00.000-04:002007-06-15T19:48:00.000-04:00I like phoenix's ideas, both to continue these dis...I like phoenix's ideas, both to continue these discussions, and her choice of first topic. <BR/><BR/>Can we do it?Robin S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03258459688300851984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-3111245513641212252007-06-15T17:15:00.000-04:002007-06-15T17:15:00.000-04:00Ooh, this was a fun debate! I have a suggestion fo...Ooh, this was a fun debate! I have a suggestion for the next one, when and if we all recover from this one. <BR/><BR/>Stylistic sentence fragments. <BR/><BR/>Frags -- even those well-written ones where the writer is in complete control -- seem to raise the wrath and red pens of alpha critiquers who thoughtlessly force verbs into every naked frag they see, unable to rest until each sentence under their command can be properly diagrammed. <BR/><BR/>Opposing them are writers who, with great love and delight, place periods wantonly, shamelessly even, abandoning themselves to the cadence of the words and the staccato peal of a sentence string that sings.<BR/><BR/>Might be *fun* to see into which camps the minions fall -- and why.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-65687200686962115652007-06-15T14:28:00.000-04:002007-06-15T14:28:00.000-04:00As Haruna leaves the first scene so soon, perhaps ...<I>As Haruna leaves the first scene so soon, perhaps it's best to put both scenes in Tahir's POV.</I><BR/><BR/>Good suggestion. Not the least because the Haruna scene feels incomplete--there's no real arc to it. It establishes setting and that's about it. <BR/><BR/>As to your definition of omniscient, thanks for posting that. I see now why we were in disagreement on this issue. I have a very different perspective on limited-third POV.<BR/><BR/>Ultimately, it doesn't matter what anyone calls a certain POV or how they see it--it's how it's used in the story.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504439129670380071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-11408314334178129832007-06-15T11:17:00.000-04:002007-06-15T11:17:00.000-04:00Let's look what we have here: drunkenness and a pl...Let's look what we have here: drunkenness and a plane going into the ocean. Chaos on top of chaos. Addled minds on a night-flight into terror.<BR/><BR/>Maybe the POV shifts are deliberately jarring. Maybe this author is brilliantly capturing the choppy nature of what's happening to this flight, filtered through the alcohol-soaked neurons of those who may or may not have survived and may or may not be able to remember or accurately relate what they saw / heard / thought / felt ... by purposely breaking POV rules to fit the scene. Absolutely brilliant!<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, maybe not.<BR/><BR/>[ JRM ]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-18374612051618968092007-06-15T10:20:00.000-04:002007-06-15T10:20:00.000-04:00Shifting to a new point of view is necessary; Haru...Shifting to a new point of view is necessary; Haruna is no longer in the room. This "shift" is designated by a skipped line (marked with a #), indicating a new scene. <BR/><BR/>As Haruna leaves the first scene so soon, perhaps it's best to put both scenes in Tahir's POV. No longer can Haruna think that the captain's an ass and possibly too drunk, but maybe this is obvious to everyone in the cockpit and everyone reading the book anyway.Evil Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-2855812002087828072007-06-15T10:01:00.000-04:002007-06-15T10:01:00.000-04:00But see, if we look at the first 300 words here, t...But see, if we look at the first 300 words here, there are a couple of POV shifts. Now, one could argue (leniently) that the first 150 words are all from Haruna's POV. But then the second 150 are (leniently) from Tahir's POV. Then the third 150 may be from Ibrahim's POV, the next 150 from a passenger's. <BR/><BR/>So would we call this POV arc "multiple 3rd-person limited POVs" or "omniscient?" Shoot, we could deconstruct this down to the sentence level and describe POV sentence by sentence rather than short scene by short scene.<BR/><BR/>I think we're all really just talking semantics here, right? As long as the writing is clear and consistent, who cares? That consistency, though, should be established early on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-79756891474052363562007-06-15T09:29:00.000-04:002007-06-15T09:29:00.000-04:00In my (lenient) view, the limited POV author can t...In my (lenient) view, the limited POV author can tell us, when writing a scene, anything the POV character saw, knew, thought, or heard. The omniscient author can tell us anything <I>any</I> character saw, knew, thought, or heard. He could even tell us if a tree falling in the woods when no one was around made a sound.Evil Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-54149222907685156082007-06-15T09:10:00.000-04:002007-06-15T09:10:00.000-04:00EE, if you consider the POV in the opening under d...EE, if you consider the POV in the opening under discussion to be limited-third (if somewhat leniently interpreted), how would you define omniscient?Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504439129670380071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-61878938556900610612007-06-15T09:09:00.000-04:002007-06-15T09:09:00.000-04:00Amyb, well put. I read the same way, from inside a...Amyb, well put. I read the same way, from inside a character's head--unless a clear, omniscient POV is established right up front, one that takes you from outside to inside and back again smoothly and with no confusion. (<I>Gone With the Wind</I> would be a good example of that.) The "camera" shifts in this particular opening were abrupt and confusing, from my perspective. If the author wants to stick with the omniscient, fine--but it needs to be done without jarring the reader.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504439129670380071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-784630799574232992007-06-15T00:37:00.000-04:002007-06-15T00:37:00.000-04:00I believe a small but significant minority of read...I believe a small but significant minority of readers are highly disoriented by POV shifts, and I happen to be one of them. I'm not a "POV Nazi," in that I'm not looking for POV problems for the sake of showing off and nitpicking. They really do confuse me and pull me out of the story.<BR/><BR/>I think it has something to do with the way I visualize scenes as I read. I quite literally put myself in a character's head, and whenever anything happens that requires a dramatic "camera shift," I am jolted out of the story and have to change my mental picture. If it happens a lot, I'll skim ahead to the next bit that seems to be stable. Theoretically, if it kept on happening, I'd probably stop reading, but that has actually never happened to me while reading a published novel. I find published stuff is pretty clean on POV.<BR/><BR/>I had trouble reading this opening because of all the camera shifts. For me, the POV stuff is not about the author following a set of arcane rules, but about the reader being able to follow a story easily and smoothly. If a story reads smoothly and my camera's not being yanked all over the place, I don't care if we're in omniscient or limited or whatever. But if I'm confused or disoriented, I'll start pointing out the POV issues. I did find this opening confusing and disorienting (though the writing was otherwise great and the setup intriguing).AmyBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02636921840451091870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-81260068296032667622007-06-14T23:36:00.000-04:002007-06-14T23:36:00.000-04:00Exactly, anonymous. You lot have been awful busy f...Exactly, anonymous. You lot have been awful busy fretting while I've been sleeping.McKoalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01457446171624585099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-89550794291746640692007-06-14T22:30:00.000-04:002007-06-14T22:30:00.000-04:00Good morning McKoala!Good morning McKoala!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-91325233668363624982007-06-14T21:51:00.000-04:002007-06-14T21:51:00.000-04:00Wow.Wow.McKoalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01457446171624585099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-64006712899945022212007-06-14T20:13:00.000-04:002007-06-14T20:13:00.000-04:00Whatever works, as long as it makes sense....and i...<I>Whatever works, as long as it makes sense.</I><BR/><BR/>...and it makes the writing the best it can possibly be, because the story always deserves that. If <I>Raucous laughter filled the cockpit...</I> makes the story even slightly better, and removes even one slight problem that some small percentage of readers might have over <I>Raucous laughter pealed from the cockpit...</I> it's worth it, isn't it? It's worth having at least taken the time to think about the difference it makes...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-56638246476587276722007-06-14T19:38:00.000-04:002007-06-14T19:38:00.000-04:00The first person who ever wrote fiction in limited...The first person who ever wrote fiction in limited omniscient (or any other POV) was breaking the rules. Authors occasionally come up with new ways of telling stories. Whatever works, as long as it makes sense.Evil Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-20183094132961440012007-06-14T19:26:00.000-04:002007-06-14T19:26:00.000-04:00This POV discussion has been one of the most edify...This POV discussion has been one of the most edifying and robust topics to grace the pages of this blog, in recent months if not ever. I am impressed. <BR/><BR/>A hearty round of applause and a standing ovulation to EE for that 2nd post. :}><<BR/><BR/>As for the lack of septum-spew material, I'm sure pac or px or ? will make up for that soon.<BR/><BR/>Author,any final thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-84377736706061674252007-06-14T17:58:00.000-04:002007-06-14T17:58:00.000-04:00EE said -"There's room in between as well."That's ...EE said -"There's room in between as well."<BR/><BR/>That's just it - there's room in between. Other than total misuse, there IS no right ro wrong on this one, at least not to me. There's no going to shcool and graduating with a degree in POV perfection. <BR/><BR/>Again, as long as it's done well, just like with the sentence structure fandango as in nonsense,not the dance) this is a matter of taste more than a matter of anal correctness (the POV version of political correctness).<BR/><BR/>This is coming a little too close for comfort, in my view, to those thrilling days of yesteryear when hall monitors ruled the earth, and everyone had to stay in line or face eternal damnation by the rule-dudes.Robin S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03258459688300851984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-79791916684314918722007-06-14T17:48:00.000-04:002007-06-14T17:48:00.000-04:00EE, I agree, although when the writer starts stray...EE, I agree, although when the writer starts straying into the reporter-telling-story technique, I think the POV ceases to be "limited." :) I tend to write a fairly tight third myself, so I have a certain prejudice towards it, I suppose. But certainly it's not the only way to do things.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and to the author:<BR/><BR/>Please forgive the liberties I took with your opening. It's not my habit to rewrite someone else's prose (I hate it when someone does that to mine; just tell me what's wrong and I'll find a way to fix it, thank you very much), but in this case, I was only trying to illustrate the difference between omni and limited third so I could win an argument with EE. But he's tricksy, so I don't think I did.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504439129670380071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-62673290618182212452007-06-14T17:08:00.000-04:002007-06-14T17:08:00.000-04:00There are different levels of limited POV. That wh...There are different levels of limited POV. That which is like 1st person is a very deep level.<BR/>That which is like a reporter interviewing the characters--but staying in their POV--is a very lenient level. There's room in between as well. <BR/><BR/>The rules of POV are not meant to shackle the author. The author has to have leeway in telling the story, no matter whose POV it comes from, or the final product will inevitably suffer.Evil Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-74049543407355316912007-06-14T14:51:00.000-04:002007-06-14T14:51:00.000-04:00EE said: A book that told us everything a characte...<I>EE said: A book that told us everything a character sees, hears and thinks would be unbearably boring.</I><BR/><BR/>And horribly unfocused. But I don't think anyone was suggesting that a book be written that way.<BR/><BR/>Think of tight-third as being just like first-person, only the pronouns are different. A tight third-person POV only means that no information can be imparted that the POV character isn't seeing, thinking, or in some way experiencing at that moment. But that doesn't mean <I>everything</I> he sees, thinks, eperiences has to always be communicated. Good storytelling means controlling the amount and pace of information given to the reader.Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504439129670380071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-52402626332962138942007-06-14T14:12:00.000-04:002007-06-14T14:12:00.000-04:00Yes, that's exactly what an omniscient POV is. The...<I>Yes, that's exactly what an omniscient POV is. The story is filtered through a narrator who's not in the story. But plenty of fiction isn't written that way. <BR/><BR/>Limited (or some call it tight) third-person POV largely eliminates that filter. The story is told from within a character's head.</I><BR/><BR/>But filtered by the author. We still get only those sights, sounds, thoughts the author allows us. A book that told us everything a character sees, hears and thinks would be unbearably boring.<BR/><BR/>As I said earlier, I'm no authority (is there one?) but I prefer to see the difference between omniscient and limited not as the difference between hearing the story from God or hearing it from Haruna; but between hearing the story from an author who knows everything that happened in the cockpit, and an author who knows everything Haruna knows about what happened in the cockpit. <BR/><BR/>Obviously there are more ways to look at it, as there are numerous ways to handle POV. The important point is to decide the POV rules for your book in advance and stick with them. If you're consistent, only the hardliners will come down on you. If you're in limited for thirty chapters and then slip, it may be jarring.Evil Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-80102006082481802832007-06-14T13:23:00.000-04:002007-06-14T13:23:00.000-04:00EE said: Haruna isn't the scene's author, he's its...<I>EE said: Haruna isn't the scene's author, he's its POV character. He tells the reporter, There was laughter, loud laughter, so loud I know it could be heard from the cabin, because I heard them laughing myself, twenty minutes earlier, before the crew invited me into the cockpit. The author decides Haruna's statement is wordy, and the novel will be 500,000 words if it's told in Haruna's words, so she/he condenses it. It's still what Haruna knew, but filtered.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, that's exactly what an omniscient POV is. The story is filtered through a narrator who's not in the story. But plenty of fiction isn't written that way. <BR/><BR/>Limited (or some call it tight) third-person POV largely eliminates that filter. The story is told from within a character's head.<BR/><BR/>Now, using the omniscient, you can save time and space. You can take short cuts. You can summarize rather than show. (You can also show things the characters would never see.) But you sacrifice closeness and engagement with the main character(s). <BR/><BR/>You asked what I would do. Here's another version of the original opening. Mine is only 40 or so words longer, but I think most of the same information is there. The real difference is that the omniscient POV is eliminated; this is all Haruna's perceptions. (And it ain't polished--it's just a quick-and-dirty example.)<BR/>***<BR/><BR/>It was a good thing, Haruna reflected, that the other passengers couldn't see what passed for regulation behavior on the flight deck of Liberia Airlines Flight five-zero-nine. Though it wouldn't take long to find out, the way the crew kept dissolving into unprofessional peals of laughter. And the place smelled like a distillery.<BR/> <BR/>Captain Ibrahim, clutching a shot glass full of scotch pilfered from the first-class cabinet, peered fondly at Haruna through malaria-yellowed eyes. "One more drink…Alhaji?"<BR/><BR/>Haruna didn't miss the stress on the honorific. Ibrahim was an ass, but it was kind of him to remember. "No, I can't. I have to get some sleep." Outside the luminiscent glow of the 747 cockpit, the sky was a black field of diamond stars. Below, the cold Atlantic, seven miles down. Ahead, home--that is, if Ibrahim could find the airport in his current state. Best to be optimistic. "I have to drive to my village as soon as we land."<BR/><BR/>Ibrahim grabbed his arm. "You'll have time to sleep when you're on the job." <BR/><BR/>The co-pilot snorted into his drink. Haruna held up his hand. "I can't. I--"<BR/><BR/>Ibrahim swayed, leering. "You'll have time to sleep when you're with your wife."<BR/><BR/>The crew apparently thought this hysterically funny. Haruna winced at the noise, and gently extricated himself from the captain's grasp. "I'll go back to my seat now, so you can...attend to your duties here. But don't forget your old friends when you're a big airline tycoon." <I>And don't forget how to land this bloody bird…</I><BR/> <BR/>He eased out the door. A heartbeat later, a resounding thud shook the aircraft.<BR/><BR/>Captain Ibrahim passing out?<BR/><BR/>No such luck.<BR/>***Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504439129670380071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-2336499885829836742007-06-14T13:14:00.000-04:002007-06-14T13:14:00.000-04:00Well, drat. I weighed in on this earlier, but I gu...Well, drat. I weighed in on this earlier, but I guess my brilliant insight was too blinding for blogger to handle.<BR/><BR/>To try to recap: I was fine with accepting this writing slice as being omniscient. An omniscient narrator is rarely objective. The narrator carefully selects the events to describe and from whose perspecive to describe and analyze them. That is how an omnisicient narrator leads the reader through a story. The reporter analogy doesn't quite work for me because reporters are supposed to be objective when relating a story. A narrator, in my mind, is a whole 'nother beast.<BR/><BR/>If a writer has to convince me of the POV, or I have to work too hard to figure it out, then someone isn't doing their job. Consistency in how POV is handled within any given work is all I ask. And for me, this piece worked as omniscient. Could it be told from strict 3rd-person limited? Yes, of course. But that's the author's decision.<BR/><BR/><I>what angle the jet hit the water</I> -- Buffy, priceless. Hehe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com