tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post8231380643753306873..comments2024-03-26T18:28:06.391-04:00Comments on Evil Editor: Face-Lift 641Evil Editorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-45185593195682947682009-06-11T21:04:41.810-04:002009-06-11T21:04:41.810-04:00Vonnegut is definitely worth reading.Vonnegut is definitely worth reading.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-26327683655811412822009-06-11T18:30:21.159-04:002009-06-11T18:30:21.159-04:00I need to go read Kurt Vonnegut's books now. I...I need to go read Kurt Vonnegut's books now. If they're as good as "Harrison Bergeron," I'm hooked._*rachel*_https://www.blogger.com/profile/03293167107180931700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-7790553944992687922009-06-11T12:10:30.252-04:002009-06-11T12:10:30.252-04:00My own experience - for whatever that's worth ...My own experience - for whatever that's worth - suggests that "literary merit" and "popular appeal" are pretty much independent variables.<br /><br />Shakespeare and Dickens both wrote stuff of undeniable high quality, and wrote it for an appreciative mass market audience.<br /><br />It's easy enough to think of books which have acknowledged literary merit, but haven't been big sellers. (A personal favourite of mine is David Lindsay's "A Voyage to Arcturus", which sold all of 597 copies of its first edition ... but keeps coming back into print, because of its cult following.)<br /><br />And it's easy enough to think of stuff which has popular appeal but no literary merit. I'll leave the filling in of names here as an exercise for the alert reader ...<br /><br />And, per Sturgeon's Law, the vast bulk of writing out there has neither merit nor appeal. (If it's genre writing, it will eventually wash up in one of the charity shops near me, where I will find it, buy it in a fit of optimism, and take it home and read it. So I know what I'm talking about, here.)<br /><br />There are people who will tell you that genre writing (any genre) can't, by definition, have literary merit, and any genre stuff that's actually any good has to be "promoted" to literary fiction. I happen to disagree, myself.Steve Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09836762265698458170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-21274697798271693442009-06-11T12:05:40.303-04:002009-06-11T12:05:40.303-04:00Ah, I see my internet problems caused comment dupl...Ah, I see my internet problems caused comment duplication(ish). Sorry about that!<br /><br />PKD's mainstream novels are shelved in SFF in Waterstones, so, yeah.<br /><br />(and, of course, now I'm having problems posting THIS comment)nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-16192069458761804792009-06-11T10:40:24.020-04:002009-06-11T10:40:24.020-04:00Buff - I think they need good stories AND elegant ...Buff - I think they need good stories AND elegant writing. What passes for literary fiction now, isn't what literary fiction was before. It used not to be all frou-frou and navel gazing - and to be honest, I don't really think of that stuff as literary. Crap is crap, in my opinion, no matter the posing and packaging. I believe there's a widespread misconception about what elements consitute a 'literary' novel now.<br /><br />I thought of Stewart's novel as literary with magical elements, EE - but I figured you'd disagree and say it was fantasy. Seems like a unique blend to me - and part of what made it truly unique was the excellent prose. Is Perfect Circle, something you'd have taken on?<br /><br />Vonnegut is in a class by himself. I like those guys. Like Heller is in a class by himself.<br />Heller would be turned dpwn flat now - for Catch 22. No one would read his 'query' - because his word count would be too long.Robin B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11471528485010071521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-46407679475351685942009-06-11T10:21:15.340-04:002009-06-11T10:21:15.340-04:00Robin, I really hate to say this, but writing well...Robin, I really hate to say this, but writing well =/= literary merit.<br /><br />Nor does literary merit = still in print in twenty years time.<br /><br />Litfic sales are pitiful compared to genre. The books people read and remember are the ones with good stories, not elegant writing.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-55991580972153141892009-06-11T10:19:26.661-04:002009-06-11T10:19:26.661-04:00I'd call Perfect Circle literary fiction. Stew...I'd call Perfect Circle literary fiction. Stewart has written science fiction, and I suspect they would shelve all his books together for easier findability rather than in different sections.<br /><br />Most Kurt Vonnegut is science fiction, but usually all his books are together, in this case in the literature section.Evil Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-34053634056408266332009-06-11T10:01:22.915-04:002009-06-11T10:01:22.915-04:00Robin, I really hate to say this, but writing well...Robin, I really hate to say this, but writing well =/= literary merit.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-7177096293761157702009-06-11T09:15:18.903-04:002009-06-11T09:15:18.903-04:00Buff - I see what you mean about the importance of...Buff - I see what you mean about the importance of marketing - I really do - but I think writing well comes first, if a piece of fiction is gonna stand the test of time (and with our accelerated world clock - I mean by that, not be out of print in a New York minute).Robin B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11471528485010071521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-7224630267961875232009-06-11T09:13:07.075-04:002009-06-11T09:13:07.075-04:00Well, what about that Sean Stewart guy? I'm th...Well, what about that Sean Stewart guy? I'm thinking most about the first Book Chat novel we read -<br />Perfect Circle.<br /><br />Since that's real world with fantastical elements (that are never fully explained as being true, or only in the protagonist's head, or both - and I like that ambiguity) - does he write fantasy, or a sub-genre - maybe magical realism?Robin B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11471528485010071521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-63393834451861184062009-06-11T04:18:05.803-04:002009-06-11T04:18:05.803-04:00It's much more about marketing than it is abou...It's much more about marketing than it is about the writing or even what's written about.<br /><br />Plenty of mainstream novels have fantastical elements; you can identify them by how vociferously their authors deny they're writing genre. viz Margaret Atwoodnonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-59570777521257385422009-06-11T03:49:49.084-04:002009-06-11T03:49:49.084-04:00Heh heh heh, I like Matthew's description. Pre...Heh heh heh, I like Matthew's description. Pretty bang on the money. Dickens was *trash* in his day. <br /><br />Rachel: I do think you're a tad off the mark here. I've read plenty of sci fi that was heavy-deep and beautifully written (Eg Left Hand of Darkness), and the only reason it's not shelved in the regular fiction section of the bookstore is because of how the publisher chose to market it, or sometimes how the bookstore chose to classify it. (I work in a bookstore.) Elizabeth George & PD James are 2 of the most successful mystery writers, and are also considered *literary.*<br /><br />There are books in the regular fiction section that have supernatural or fantasy elements to them (Frankenstein is a perfect example); or mystery stories (Steig Larsson), or romances (Pride and Prejudice), etc. The whole classification thing is very arbitrary.<br /><br />HOWEVER I agree that the query in question doesn't sound literary. First and foremost because I find the writing itself to be pretty weak.<br /><br />(And I wouldn't recommend Pride and Prejudice and the Zombies... it's written at the level of a Young Adult Adapted Classics sort of book.)London Mabelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04344685160375710889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-50833924608169837562009-06-11T00:28:20.459-04:002009-06-11T00:28:20.459-04:00freddie....are you saying you can be bribed?
Yes....<i>freddie....are you saying you can be bribed?</i><br /><br />Yes. I'd prefer it involve a hot, sexy actor and a large sum of money. Please see if you can arrange that. : )Stacyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365582623380288038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-546067968062311672009-06-10T21:58:15.218-04:002009-06-10T21:58:15.218-04:00Litfic = tragedy
Genre = happy ending*
*If a gen...Litfic = tragedy<br />Genre = happy ending*<br /><br />*If a genre novel becomes extremely famous it is deemed literary by later generations (for example: Pride and Prejudice)Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07681932402948885690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-43604153309177801632009-06-10T21:06:25.619-04:002009-06-10T21:06:25.619-04:00Most vampire stuff I've seen around and on the...Most vampire stuff I've seen around and on the blog, is basically fantasy. So when I read this author describing Drinkers as literary, it struck me as funny; I wouldn't describe this as literary fiction.<br /><br />By the way, I'm thinking of literary fiction as stuff about personal and societal issues, a cross of what I've read in English class and the NaNoWriMo litfic forum description. On the whole, I don't think it usually has much supernatural (not talking about Christian litfic here), besides the odd ghost (ie, Hamlet's dad). The Joy Luck Club is litfic, I'd say, along with stuff by authors like Sherman Alexie or Harper Lee. Am I about right?<br /><br />Good save on the nutcase bit. Thanks! Blessed are the peacemakers and all that._*rachel*_https://www.blogger.com/profile/03293167107180931700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-78755584425151682442009-06-10T19:12:24.143-04:002009-06-10T19:12:24.143-04:00freddie....are you saying you can be bribed?freddie....are you saying you can be bribed?Robin S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03258459688300851984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-67238056979105811522009-06-10T18:50:26.000-04:002009-06-10T18:50:26.000-04:00Nah, sqrls have "nutcase" reserved alrea...Nah, sqrls have "nutcase" reserved already :D.<br /><br />Vampire novels can be litfic; it all depends where the publisher decides to categorise them. Frex, "The Time Traveller's Wife", while clearly borrowing SF tropes, was marketed as litfic.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-37995587300960123522009-06-10T18:39:16.240-04:002009-06-10T18:39:16.240-04:00"Literary" as a description of genre, no..."Literary" as a description of genre, not quality. This could go either way in quality, but I'd classify this as fantasy, not literary, in genre.<br /><br />And if I'm being a nutcase, I'll shut up, listen, and learn._*rachel*_https://www.blogger.com/profile/03293167107180931700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-58671155653560240192009-06-10T18:29:46.455-04:002009-06-10T18:29:46.455-04:00Where a book is shelved has everything to do with ...Where a book is shelved has everything to do with marketing and nothing to do with literary merit.<br /><br />Further, there's a difference between "literary fiction" as a category and "literary merit" as a quality. A very large difference.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-8382420940071616492009-06-10T18:01:49.966-04:002009-06-10T18:01:49.966-04:00Hey, I LIKE genre fiction. I write mostly genre fi...Hey, I LIKE genre fiction. I write mostly genre fiction, too--SFF. And of course genre fiction can have literary merit in writing quality and themes! All the better when it does. But it's still marketed as genre.<br /><br />Most people wanting a vampire book aren't looking for class struggles, intergenerational relationships, etc. Most people looking for deep thought aren't looking for vampire books. The twain may meet, but I'm 99% sure this book will be shelved with and advertised as SFF, not literary fiction. I browse the shelves to find entertaining books, not to find life-changing books.<br /><br />I consider this novel genre fiction, not literary; that's why I thought the phrase an oxymoron._*rachel*_https://www.blogger.com/profile/03293167107180931700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-36929121513615805942009-06-10T17:42:00.749-04:002009-06-10T17:42:00.749-04:00I dunno; what's a problem in one genre might b...I dunno; what's a problem in one genre might be the way it's done in another.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-33824312007218793782009-06-10T16:33:00.821-04:002009-06-10T16:33:00.821-04:00Oh yeah - forgot to mention.
I'm totally open...Oh yeah - forgot to mention.<br /><br />I'm totally open to bribery.Stacyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365582623380288038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-77444227232011699032009-06-10T16:23:13.400-04:002009-06-10T16:23:13.400-04:00Really have a hard time getting past the "Dri...Really have a hard time getting past the "Drinkers" title. It sounds like it should be a memoir of a lush's travels as s/he moves through the 12 steps in AA.<br /><br />As an aside, plenty of genre books have the same underlying themes as their literary counterparts. Ray Bradbury's <i>Something Wicked This Way Comes</i> is as much about a father and son bridging their generational divide as it is about an evil carnival with a magic carousel. <br /><br />A lot of genre writing is crap, but so is a lot of so-called literary fiction. I think a lot of this boils down to taste. But I'm with Robin: good is good.Stacyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365582623380288038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-57582701119959876352009-06-10T11:26:45.210-04:002009-06-10T11:26:45.210-04:00Is this supposed to be a synopsis (like it says in...Is this supposed to be a synopsis (like it says in the first line)? I'm assuming you meant query. Or did you mean you were including the synopsis and the pages along with the query? Geez. I'm confused at the outset. Not hard for me in the morning.<br /><br />Your query seems to rely more on tell than show since you spend a paragraph telling what your book is like instead of showing it in the body of the query. I'd be afraid that your book does the same thing.<br /><br />The body of the query has some intriguing information. And it has some contradictions. If they're the only two vampires, why is there a world vampire association? And then there are Drinkers who they seem to know about, so why do they think they're the only two?<br /><br />Confusing and more tell than show - not putting your best foot forward here. But I am intrigued and hope you post a revision.Sarah Laurensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09252565450452195395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-39620860586370670732009-06-10T11:21:26.806-04:002009-06-10T11:21:26.806-04:00Definitely, Robin--first time authors have to prov...Definitely, Robin--first time authors have to prove themselves, and publishers will take less of a chance on them. Although there are always exceptions.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.com