tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post7849786779825365669..comments2024-03-26T18:28:06.391-04:00Comments on Evil Editor: Face-Lift 855Evil Editorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-17597369364842794692011-01-05T17:54:09.959-05:002011-01-05T17:54:09.959-05:00Wouldn't "'til death do they part&quo...<i>Wouldn't "'til death do they part" mean that you are parting until you die?<br /><br />No, 'cause that's not what it means. Death is the subject here, doing the doing ("to part"), as it were, upon the object ("us/they"). It means until death parts us/they.</i><br /><br />Well, the syntax is off. Properly (or in modern times) you'd read it "Until death parts them." That's why the phrase is commonly "Til death do them part".<br /><br />Like, you wouldn't say "Death parted they", you'd say "Death parted them". They implies that death is a conditional state of being rather than a physical thing that will separate them.Joe Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-87398589492346356092011-01-04T23:27:49.833-05:002011-01-04T23:27:49.833-05:00"WTF?
It's easier than being bullied an..."WTF? <br /><br />It's easier than being bullied and judged, maybe? <br /><br />Wow."<br /><br />Anonymous- Most of the thousands of the kids who were bullied in school DON'T kill themselves. That's why we still have adults. <br /><br />I was trying to show a logical problem with the query- temporary social conformity would have solved the problem just as well as suicide, without the "side effects." I wanted to know what it was about Lizzie that made her choose suicide instead of letting it blow over like most kids. The bullies always find a new target.<br /><br />What most kids do is lie low until the bullies find another victim, and at seventeen, she knows High School won't last forever. The query wasn't clear on this point.St0n3hengehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504412781917592790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-9780203607902290232011-01-04T19:33:08.698-05:002011-01-04T19:33:08.698-05:00It should be Lizzie who can't look Angie in th...<i>It should be Lizzie who can't look Angie in the face. </i><br /><br /><i>And after this she kills herself- why? It's easier than trying not to be a slut anymore? </i><br /><br />WTF? <br /><br />It's easier than being bullied and judged, maybe? <br /><br />Wow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-18957784835859492632011-01-04T08:32:41.530-05:002011-01-04T08:32:41.530-05:00Wouldn't "'til death do they part&quo...<i>Wouldn't "'til death do they part" mean that you are parting until you die?</i><br /><br />No, 'cause that's not what it means. Death is the subject here, doing the doing ("to part"), as it were, upon the object ("us/they"). It means until death parts us/they.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-43642427632164018462011-01-04T02:30:02.883-05:002011-01-04T02:30:02.883-05:00Oh, btw, for some reason I was thinking of Til Dea...Oh, btw, for some reason I was thinking of Til Death Do You Part as, Until death comes and you part, rather than, Until death <i>parts</i> you. <br /><br />Doh!Chelsea Pitcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16301150715189103602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-32595033758503154372011-01-04T02:08:55.364-05:002011-01-04T02:08:55.364-05:00I love that people are still talking about this! I...I love that people are still talking about this! It warms the cockles of my little heart. This is clearly a topic that people feel passionate about, and I've gotten a great deal of insight into what the query is missing. <br /><br />Jo-Ann, thank you for the encouragement. For what it's worth, all my works are feministic, so when I tackle issues like the slut/stud dichotomy, I try to do it in a way that makes people question the rules regarding sex and gender. (Although I clearly can do more to illustrate this in the query, as it's not coming across At All.)<br /><br />Buffy, once again I completely agree with you. The idea of a separate teen culture baffles me. Some of the most compassionate, creative people I know are teens, so while they might react strongly to a betrayal, I've yet to meet one who would react in a a Lord of the Flies type of way.<br /><br />Joe, I think you may be on to something with the writing style. I tried to infuse some of the voice of the narrator while keeping respect for a very tragic subject, which is a difficult balance. Clearly, I haven't struck it yet, but I'll keep trying!<br /><br />I've put together a (first) revision based on people's comments, and the wonderful Phoenix has agreed to put it on her site. It goes up tomorrow, for anyone interested. <br /><br />You've all been amazing. Thank you.Chelsea Pitcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16301150715189103602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-25463069286610088102011-01-03T11:41:47.435-05:002011-01-03T11:41:47.435-05:00You know, my initial thought was that I thought th...You know, my initial thought was that I thought the query was trying too hard to be provocative, but it seems to have gotten a lot of different reactions so maybe you're treading the right water. All the same, I would be careful about being flippant in tone. The query has a lot of touchy social ideas and sort of a cutesy writing style which is, I think, what is making people uncomfortable.<br /><br />I think it was a fair criticism to wonder where the boyfriend is in all of this. I mean, stories about girls fighting over men are numerous (Cinderella, Mean Girls, A Midsummer's Night's Dream, we could do this for a while...). It's not really as provocative as you might think. I think it's much more provocative to suggest that girls DON'T have to fight over men...<br /><br />Wouldn't "'til death do they part" mean that you are parting until you die? Kind of a funny way to misspeak.Joe Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-28054279718612248412011-01-03T06:42:18.084-05:002011-01-03T06:42:18.084-05:00Although I confess I find the idea of a separate t...Although I confess I find the idea of a separate teen 'culture' a bit absurd. It's the adult culture, reflected back at us--some parts are rejected, some parts are exaggerated, but it's still all a response to our views and attitudes. Unfortunately.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-85170884287582208532011-01-03T03:22:53.902-05:002011-01-03T03:22:53.902-05:00Art reflects Life, and sadly, the double standard ...Art reflects Life, and sadly, the double standard is alive and well amongst contemporary teens. <br /><br />Young women are branded as sluts if they are indiscrete (or do I mean indiscriminate?) about their choice of partners, and young men are studs. Or, at least, seen to have limited responsibility for their actions: it's normal to take what's offered without consideration of the consequences, 'coz the poor darlings are just victims of their raging hormones. <br /><br />Of course it stinks, and not all teens subscribe to that view. So kudos to Chelsea for tackling "hot button" issues (how viciously young people can turn on each ohter, and suicidality). From her posts, it seems that she's attemtping to highlight just how destructive hypocritical attitudes are. <br /><br />Well done, you've made me want to read the completed work - but I'm not your intended audience. I left my adolescence years ago.Jo-Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15705983780352542190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-61811187587286898252011-01-02T16:37:10.526-05:002011-01-02T16:37:10.526-05:00Thank you, Bibi. You are probably right.
It's...Thank you, Bibi. You are probably right.<br /><br />It's a good friend who'll tell you you're wrong right after you ranted very loudly :).<br /><br />In these comments, people have clearly identified that, although I might find Lizzie sympathetic, the target readership may well not do so. So something 'extra' may be needed for an agent who reps YA to see in Lizzie a character that teens will identify with despite her somewhat dubious behaviour. I don't think it needs much. Just something Angie perhaps discovers about Lizzie's life after her death, or about what *really* happened between Lizzie and Angie's boyfriend.<br /><br />Perhaps the trigger for her switching to Lizzie's side might be finding out how the boyfriend really views the encounter and its consequences? Well, it's not my story :).nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-73735092989501198882011-01-01T20:21:54.615-05:002011-01-01T20:21:54.615-05:00I think I should clarify my earlier comment. (This...I think I should clarify my earlier comment. (This does have something to do with the actual query.)<br /><br />Lizzie is a slut- according to the teens who will be reading this novel. At least the way the query, so far, presents the story. I'm sure not all teens will feel <br />this way but most of them will. Sleeping with your BFF's current boyfriend is a big no-no. Even sleeping with her ex is iffy if there's a chance they'll get back together. <br /><br />A YA agent might look at the query and think that if the author doesn't know how to make Lizzie sympathetic to the intended reader (NOT mature adults) that she isn't skillful enough to make those readers want to read the story. (There's no use trying to define "slut" for them, or any word, for that matter. They use a word the way they use it. It's their culture, not ours.) <br /><br />An agent who specializes in YA knows what teens will read and what they will not read. Morality stories are not well received, so the book must be all the more skillfully written.<br /><br />That was what I meant.St0n3hengehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504412781917592790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-44835199161606429482011-01-01T17:40:29.887-05:002011-01-01T17:40:29.887-05:00You may, but I'd just forward it so you may as...You may, but I'd just forward it so you may as well send it to her.Evil Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03879826770199639420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-48612850813962041052011-01-01T17:14:30.225-05:002011-01-01T17:14:30.225-05:00EE, if I want to submit a revision for Phoenix'...EE, if I want to submit a revision for Phoenix's site, should I post it here?<br /><br />Thanks!Chelsea Pitcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16301150715189103602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-3979812825885885372011-01-01T15:48:05.122-05:002011-01-01T15:48:05.122-05:00Buffy, I can't even articulate how much I love...Buffy, I can't even articulate how much I love you right now. And I agree with everything you said. <br /><br />"Slut" is an empty signifier. Ask 100 people to define it and you get 100 answers. It means nothing, but is used to dehumanize human beings. <br /><br />Thank you :)Chelsea Pitcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16301150715189103602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-51321559880749232752011-01-01T10:59:31.064-05:002011-01-01T10:59:31.064-05:00Evil: If this is not appropriate please don't ...Evil: If this is not appropriate please don't publish. Thanks<br /><br />Dear Buffy:<br />Having sex one time with one person is sluttish now? What the hell is a slut, anyway? Oh, yes, right, it's any woman who has sex. Well, that's most of you, right?<br /><br />No, if I have sex with my best friend's significant other I am not a very good friend but he's not a very good boyfriend either. This has nothing to do with slutiness. Whether I have sex or not has nothing to do with me being slutty or my comments. <br />BibiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-78818906718430307322011-01-01T10:44:54.431-05:002011-01-01T10:44:54.431-05:00Evil: If this is out of line please do not publish...Evil: If this is out of line please do not publish my comment. Thanks.<br /><br />Hey Bufffy,<br />I respect comments. I respected yours but I've gotta say your comments these days don't help the writer. Maybe instead of criticizing all of the comments maybe we need to take a look at the query and try to help the author. <br />BibiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-85973666806550988522011-01-01T10:25:17.109-05:002011-01-01T10:25:17.109-05:00Hey Buffy,
Web definitions for slut
slattern: a d...Hey Buffy,<br />Web definitions for slut<br /> slattern: a dirty untidy woman <br />wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwy <br /><br />Nothing about sex in that. <br /><br />MacWilkins MacQueenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05601091849024992561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-5145586571158773622011-01-01T09:38:24.919-05:002011-01-01T09:38:24.919-05:00Am fascinated by the attitudes coming across in th...Am fascinated by the attitudes coming across in the comments here, particularly the 'she IS a slut' comment. $*%&^ OFF. or, come on, what?<br /><br />Having sex one time with one person is sluttish now? What the hell is a slut, anyway? Oh, yes, right, it's any woman who has sex. Well, that's most of you, right?<br /><br />Get a feeling the some of the commenters here would be right out there yelling SLUT SLUT and writing on the lockers. Sheesh.<br /><br />Sure, if Lizzie has sex with her best friend's boyfriend, that's a shitty thing to do. But, HELLO, it doesn't merit the treatment she gets. Very little would. So, then, we get the line that of course she couldn't have been driven to suicide by bullying--even though people sometimes are--there has to be something wrong with her. Hello, blaming the victim, much?<br /><br />So little sympathy for someone who gets punished all out of proportion with her mistake. What a hard-hearted lot you are!<br /><br />Sheesh.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-67019490128800251602011-01-01T01:48:26.146-05:002011-01-01T01:48:26.146-05:00Hi Chelsea,
I don't believe the subject is be...Hi Chelsea, <br />I don't believe the subject is being questioned.<br /><br />The first sentence made me stumble giving me an uh oh for what was coming. I'd work on that first.<br /><br />Seventeen year old Angie believed she and Liz were (give us the age from the get go). When Angie learns Liz and Angie's boyfriend slept together she is devastated. When Liz's death by (pills, slashing wrists)Angie... <br /><br />What does Angie want? Revenge is acting on anger and fuels it IMO. Hope that helps and good luck.<br />MacWilkins MacQueenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05601091849024992561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-20056749074657065042010-12-31T19:03:39.207-05:002010-12-31T19:03:39.207-05:00"I clearly need to better explain that Angie&..."I clearly need to better explain that Angie's desire for vengeance is more of an inner struggle than a spree of Batman-style revenge."<br />- Yeah, I was wondering what you actually meant by that. I went so far as to wonder if she was going to kill these people >_><br /><br />Also, how can any revenge on these people be an internal struggle?<br /><br />"And I need to better explain the "suicide slut" tie in, or else leave it out entirely."<br />- I'd probably leave it out, as it sounds difficult to explain concisely, and a larger explanation would void the focus of the query.M. G. E.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08995766358224581297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-50279467611210514842010-12-31T18:48:11.742-05:002010-12-31T18:48:11.742-05:00"I'm actually kind of amazed that some pe..."I'm actually kind of amazed that some people didn't think Angie would care that Lizzie was dead simply because Lizzie made a mistake."<br /><br />I didn't read that anywhere in these comments. The comments seem to be saying that Lizzie is not a sympathetic character. Well, the way this query is written, she isn't. We care when a real person dies. We need a good reason to care when a character in a book dies.<br /><br />Also, keep in mind that you're seeing this from an adult's point of view. Teens are not so forgiving. They feel they can't afford to be. If the society in your book was run by teenagers with no adults or authority figures, Lizzie would probably have been killed by the other girls for breaking the social rules, not just hazed. You can still see this sort of thing in primitive cultures, though there are fewer of them to study nowadays. <br /><br />Teens are sociopaths, but they can't really help it. Their brains haven't fully matured yet. If no one's brain ever matured past this point, this would be our everyday reality.<br /><br />This isn't immorality, it's a different kind of morality. Your morality says teens shouldn't bully other teens regardless of what they've done. Their morality says, "We're trying to force her to conform. It's best for her and society. If she breaks under the strain, it's sad, but it just proves she wouldn't have been able to handle society anyway."<br /><br />If you went to a tribal community as a missionary and tried to sell them your religion without first understanding their culture, they'd feed you to the Great Python. I hope you're not trying to "convert" kids with this story without first studying a LOT of adolescent psychology. <br /><br />At any rate, the story isn't coming across as realistic in this query. It just doesn't ring true somehow. Hopefully that's just the query.St0n3hengehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08504412781917592790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-38280270178332964432010-12-31T15:22:08.638-05:002010-12-31T15:22:08.638-05:00Author here,
Hello all, and thank you for your co...Author here,<br /><br />Hello all, and thank you for your comments on my query. Based on the subject matter alone, I didn't expect to get a lot of positive responses so I'm happy there are people who liked it. And I'm happy that the logic made sense to some, although I clearly need to clarify a few things, including that the girls are seventeen.<br /><br />There are two big reasons I was compelled to write this story: one, being that I recently became close to a person whose best friend committed suicide, and two being that while there is a lot in the news lately about bullying leading to suicide, a lot of people (teenagers and adults, sadly) still don't see that bullying someone for being a "slut" is a part of all that. I'm actually kind of amazed that some people didn't think Angie would care that Lizzie was dead simply because Lizzie made a mistake.<br /><br />To Phoenix and others who had an issue with the boyfriend getting no blame, don't worry, I agree with you completely. The story isn't representative of how I think things should be. It's representative of how I think things are. Thus Lizzie gets ostracized and Jake gets a boy-will-be-boys slap on the wrist. (Although Angie does hold him responsible, more and more as the story goes one, even though the school doesn't.)<br /><br />I clearly need to better explain that Angie's desire for vengeance is more of an inner struggle than a spree of Batman-style revenge. And I need to better explain the "suicide slut" tie in, or else leave it out entirely. <br /><br />Thank you all!Chelsea Pitcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16301150715189103602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-92081103357135270202010-12-31T08:39:15.018-05:002010-12-31T08:39:15.018-05:00Sorry, this is a rant and has absolutely nothing t...Sorry, this is a rant and has absolutely nothing to do with the query because it doesn't belong in the query, but it makes me crazy. Where's the boyfriend's responsibility in all of this? Why isn't HE a pariah, targeted as the male version of a slut? It takes two to tango, and he's as responsible as she is and just as capable of saying no. Plus, I'm betting the boyfriend was the one to tell others that he and Lizzie slept together because, well, only a cold slut would brag about conquering her best friend's beau, no? But Angie seems to be turning her anger on Lizzie alone and holding her boyfriend blameless. Aarrgghh.<br /><br />Are our teens still not being instilled with values around responsibility and accountability and a parity between the sexes? Are improprieties in a relationship STILL the girl's fault alone? How sad :o(Phoenix Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03290349031002504007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-90652943816756053702010-12-31T08:13:43.419-05:002010-12-31T08:13:43.419-05:00Anon,
You expressed it so well. Revenge seems out...Anon, <br />You expressed it so well. Revenge seems out of place to me in a teen suicide. <br />BibiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26791026.post-71840519106991009082010-12-31T07:28:10.610-05:002010-12-31T07:28:10.610-05:00Dear Author,
It should be Lizzie who can't lo...Dear Author,<br /><br />It should be Lizzie who can't look Angie in the face. Sleeping with the boyfriend cancels the friendship. Why would Angie defend her former friend?<br />Soon she’s plotting revenge against each of the students who made Lizzie’s life hell, including herself. <br /> Now Angie is going to get revenge against herself? She's angry because someone wrote suicide slut on a locker? <br />She's really angery over the suicide of her former friend before she could work out with why Lizzie slept with her boyfriend and get closure. She should be angry at the boyfriend as well. You don't mention anyone making Lizzie's life hell before she died. She made Angie's life hell didn't she?<br />This doesn't fly to well on my brain. I'd go at the query in a different way. Angie's best friend sleeps with her boyfriend then kills herself. Angie feels guilt/anger for many reasons but mainly because of unfinished business with Lizzie. The boyfriend has a part in this so I wouldn't leave him out. Blaming the whole school for Lizzie's suicide seems unreasonable to me. Lizzie needs a reason to kill herself. I hope it is a good one. The suicide slut whatever you mean it be aspect trivializes the story to me. Why did Lizzie kill herself? Abusive relative, leukemia? <br />Last, two names ending in "ie" may not be the best choice. <br />Good luck,<br />BibiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com