Book Chat 15: Salman Rushdie/The Enchantress of Florence
- May, 2009
- sylvia said...I didn't expect to like this at all. I've never read anything by Rushdie but when I started the book, it felt so ponderous. If it wasn't for the book chat, I don't think I would have read on.
Evil Editor
said...I was really into the story of Mogor Dell Amore which was
basically Book 1, then I got a bit lost (bored?) in Book 2 when Mogor
was telling his history leading up to the enchantress showing up. Book
3, which was the enchantress/mirror story I loved, and the ending was
unexpectedly fantastic.- sylvia said...I agree. I'm not sure how far in I was when I realised I was entranced. Even then, I expected a gentle ending, not further improvement.
- Evil Editor said...So though I could have done without all the names and places, and with less of the history, I came away with a sense of having been in the hands of a great storyteller, weaving dozens of short pieces into the big story. I think I'd enjoy it more if I read it again. Or maybe it's just that I'm in love with the enchantress . . . and her mirror.
- Robin S. said...I didn't expect to like this book - and I did. But it took some work.
- I had never read a Rushdie novel before - purposefully - because when I'm told over and over someone is amazing, I balk.
- Evil Editor said...It was hard work, no doubt about that. I had to just ignore names and places and hope they weren't important.
- ril said...I was late to buy it, so I've only read a few chapters. Frankly, I was reluctant to buy a Rushdie book. I expected ponderous, so far, I've been pleasantly surprised.
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- Dave F. said...This was the only way I would pick up Rushdie and read him. I normally like plainer language and less dense presentation but this entertained.I also thought part two dragged.
- BuffySquirrel said...hated this book. Misogynist or what? I got it in a 3 for 2 deal at Waterstones, so wasted as little money on it as I could. When I hit pages 188/189, I nearly tore the book in half.
- Robin S.
said...Misogyny and history run together, especially in the age in
which this story was told - but that was only part of the story.
- BuffySquirrel said...The historical characters being misogynist is one thing; when it's the author, that's another. I want my taxes back.
- Evil Editor said...I think you need to see it as being told by Mogor to the emperor, not by Rushdie to us.
- BuffySquirrel said...I suppose, EE. But I probably still would've hated it.
- sylvia said...I sort of accepted that in the same way as the fantastical elements, Qara Koz loves each man she's with because that's how the story goes. If she were cold and mercenary about it, it would be more realistic but when all said and done, it's a romance and a tragedy. If we got her viewpoint on the story (even as told by Rushdie) I think the details would have been very different.
- Dave F. said...I knew an Egyptian fellow a few years ago and he was terribly misogynistic. It was charming in a way.
- Evil Editor said...Did you finish it Buff?
- BuffySquirrel said...Nope. I gave up during the paean to brothels.
- Dave F. said...The enchantress of Florence really was a woman and the enchanter of palace city was a man.
- ril said...I was surprised how many liberties were taken with punctuation...
- Robin S.
said...I suppose when you're in R's shoes, you can do whatever you
want with punctuation. Those sure would be the good old days...
- Robin S. said...How did you guys feel about the way Rushdie wove history into and out of his story? ril said...There was history?
- Evil Editor said...There's Vlad Dracula.
- Robin S.
said...Obviously, history IS the story, in a manner of speaking - but
with this novel, I felt as though I was reading an intricate fairy tale.
I actually remember a few times, reading certain lines, feeling the
same way I'd felt as a kid, reading, well, fairy tales.
- sylvia
said...I really liked the way the story was interwoven with history - I
think because it was so fantastical, I didn't get bothered about what
was and wasn't real. They were clearly characterisations rather than
historical figures.
- BuffySquirrel
said...I think it's more fairy tale than historical. Rushdie takes all
kinds of liberties--except, of course, with the attitudes towards
women.
- Robin S.
said...The views on women were distasteful (I say this as a certified
occasional ball-buster and a Southern American woman who still has to
give idiots the evil eye on occasion, here and there) - but they worked
for this book. They belonged there.
- ril said...I got a kind of Don Quixote or Baron Munchausen vibe from it. Not saying it read like a bad translation or anything...
- sylvia
said...Fairy tale was exactly how I felt about it - something about
the way he got around the suspension of disbelief. He keyed into the
same part of me that accepts magic mirrors and gingerbread houses.
Grimm's Maerchen meets Arabian Nights.
- BuffySquirrel said...Unless you believe in magic, it ain't history.
- Robin S.
said...I think it is history - because what we read in history books is
a dry and scattered translation of what life felt like and was lived in
past times. To actually inhabit that space.
- Evil Editor
said...Not to spoil things for ril, but once you finish the book, it's
not clear that what happened on pages 188-189 did happen.
- BuffySquirrel said...Well, if it hadn't happened on those pages either, I might have carried on reading....
- Robin S.
said...Yeah, EE - I liked the ambiguity - what did and didn't happen -
and whether it mattered, or whether the telling of the story was the end
in itself.
- ril said...Fear not the spoilers. I'd already figured out the "tall tales" aspect -- hence the Munchausen reference...
- sylvia said...Why was his (historical, within reason for the context) attitudes towards women not taking the same sort of liberty?
Evil Editor
said...One of the things I like is that we don't know how many of the
stories Mogor recounts are just a yarn he was spinning, how many were
true, how many he believed were true even if they weren't. Probably
there are some of each. Did Akbar have him figured out? Akbar turned out
to be pretty sharp, and his idea of what really happened was
reasonable. sylvia said...The brothel and specifically the women he met there were critical to the story, buff. BuffySquirrel
said...And all the loving descriptions of the brothels before and
after they were closed on pages 188/189 were necessary? I can't see
it.Not that I'm not accustomed to the male fantasy of prostitutes
falling in love with them. Just bored to death with it. Evil Editor said...Did you find the attitude toward the enchantress herself despicable? BuffySquirrel
said...She didn't really appear in the story (unless there's some big
reveal I missed) by the time I gave up. I kinda thought maybe the
magician was a woman for a while. Robin S.
said...I have to say, it was hard to believe Rushdie thinks well of
women - thinks of them as equals - while reading this. Either that or he
is truly gifted - it felt to me as though the secret parts of himself
that agreed with his storytelling came shining through - but that didn't
detract from the amazing job he did, weaving this tale. And it does
make one think - while reading gorgeous, intricately woven prose. Dave F.
said...I enjoyed the book and thought it was a well done love story.
It fits a strangely romantic portion of history with a strange and
wonderful story of love. BuffySquirrel said...Romantic portion of history? Maybe for the men.Dave F.
said...Galileo's daughter is biography, this is storytelling for the
story's sake. It never pretends to be real. The Enchantress is a book
for enjoying the story, for sitting at a pleasure palace (like a bubble
bath in your own tub, pretending)... It's the extravagant chocolate and
expresso for dessert when the dishes are piled in the sink for much
later. The extravagant held up to plain life.Galileo's Daughter is a
story of wonder for it is real and we stand in wonder at Her
accomplishments. It has a sadness because only now, we realize just how
brilliant the daughter was and we stand in awe of her.
Evil Editor said...I saw one of his novels on a list of the best rock and roll novels ever.
Robin S. said...Some
of Rushdie's lines were amazing and funny. I laughed out loud a couple
of times in the beginning, and surprised myself. Anyone else do that?These were a scream - including how that comma was placed in the last one.
Evil Editor said...I remember that comma.
sylvia said... I think the humour worked partially because it was so unexpected. I can see people could have issues with cultural appropriation - taking myths and legends and reinterpreting them. I meant to look up whether he got any negative repercussions from that.
BuffySquirrel said...Not actually trying to stop you, Ril! sylvia said...You should definitely finish the book, ril! Robin S.
said...I enjoyed the dreamworld aspect of the novel - and the way the
dreamworld was woveninto the real world - not only as prose, but as part
of the story.Pg. 312...but they lacked imagination and opposed all intrusions of dream-worlds into the real. How
many times have you wished your particular dream-world was real - and
wondered why it wasn't as real as what passed for reality?A kind
concept, uncovered in the novel. Evil Editor said...It was strange the way the invisible woman seemed to exist even when the emperor wasn't around. BuffySquirrel said...That was interesting, EE--but of course all her thoughts revolved around the Emperor just the same. ril said...And not only in the minds of the court and subjects, but somehow in her own, non-existant, mind.Perhaps she did exist? sylvia
said...When we first met his dream wife I was thinking, this is going
to get silly now. The fact that he called her into existence (rather
than just dreaming her and controlling her existence) made it work for
me. Robin S.
said...Yes, perhaps she did, ril. Again - weaving the known, dirt and
brick and mortar world with the world of fantasy and the mind. I like
it.
Dave F. said...I think we onl see Akbar from inside his head and therefore, his imaginary wife is always present.
Evil Editor said...Until he dumps her for the enchantress. Robin S.
said...Well, EE, I'm guessing every one of us has fantasies we don't
talk about, and sometimes the focus of the fantasies change. So the move
from Jodha to the enchantress felt natural to me. ril
said...Of course, if you feel the need to be in control of a woman,
and the flesh and blood ones aren't quite doing it for you, inventing
one is a pretty, un, inventive solution. And if you're "infallible",
then exist she must. Although, I wonder if he was totally in control of
her.
sylvia said...She was certainly totally focused on him.
ril said...From his perspective...
Sylvia said...It sort of brings new meaning to "reason for living" though :)
BuffySquirrel said...As Sylvia says, her lack of any life outside him certainly suggests he had control. sylvia said...Well yes, but he makes that clear at the start. ril said... With
the caveat that I haven't read too much, one could almost think maybe
she was in control...It was interesting that when he referred to himself
as "I", she didn't react as he had anticipated. sylvia said...I really wanted to see that touched on again.sylvia said...That could be, actually. The lines are never firmly drawn. Robin S.
said...I agree, Sylvia and ril.That was interesting - how Jodha, an
imaginary woman, reacted to the 'I' with purposeful indifference. Robin S. said...Maybe this was Akbar's way of beginning to tire of Jadha. After all, she was his contruct. Robin S.
said...I see what you mean, FH. The I/We, the real/unreal, the
magic/non-magic - what is actually there. Metaphysical argument, or
internal discussion.
Dave F.
said...Look at his descriptions of his sons, all raised in some
unacceptable way, all with character flaws, all ready to overthrow him,
brilliant yet flawed... and yet he imagines a perfect wife. He has a
seraglio of wives and none as pure as his vision. But then enters a
stranger, a story teller who charms his way into the kingdom. Remember
those lines about how the other Rulers were mere men and didn;t believe
in divine right? And Akbar did? This is Akbar's dream kingdom.
fairyhedgehog
said...Sorry I'm late I got the time zones confused.I found this a
tough read as it was so complex and so patchy. I really loved some of it
and struggled with other parts. I nearly didn't finish it. Dave F.
said...One practical thing is that this is a long story and it
requires patience to finish. Rushdie takes his time in delivering the
excitement in the midst of all his words. This is like the fantastic
Arabian nights tales but told by a traveler on his return his hometown
bar. He is sitting with his friends and telling of Akbar, the great
ruler of some land east of Persia, of a once great empire like so many
imagined empires. fairyhedgehog
said...I'm not sure I'd use the word excitement. I found it lush, and
colourful, and exotic. I also struggled with the casual cruelty and
murder. I didn't have as much problem with the attitude to women as I
think Buffy did but it was a niggle. It was like being in a whole other
world but I did feel I had to work hard to stay there. BuffySquirrel
said... Hmm, maybe my Arabian Nights translation/retelling/whatever
was a bad one, but I wasn't much impressed by it. The chat almost makes
me want to give the book another chance...almost! Robin S.
said...It was tough read in parts- I'd read and read, and then be
'stopped out' of it. And have to put it down for a while. Kind of the
opposite of what I've traditionally thought of as a good way to tell a
story, but somehow, it worked for me this time. sylvia
said...The writing was heavy, I thought. As I said, if it hadn't been
for the book chat, I think I'd have put it down and let it collect dust.
Even once I started getting into it, I just read a little bit each day
rather than read for a couple of hours straight at the weekend like I
usually do. Dave F.
said...One of my favorite books is "The Name of the Rose" and that has
150 to 200 pages of sheer punishment and penance to get through to
enjoy the story. Rushdie is not as hard to read but he comes close. It's
a challenge to get through the detail.
Robin S.
said...I didn't need a dictionary as much as I needed a contextual
guidepost - because I was quiet literally out of my realm, historically.
I had no mental map markers to help me on my way. Like being lost in a
foreign country, and being frustrated by that until becoming acclimated.
And I think that may have been part of the point, at least for Western
readers.There was a lot of exploring and traveling and other-word to
conquer, both as a character in the novel, and as a reader of it.
BuffySquirrel said...Eh, I don't mind hard to read if I'm getting something out of it. Big if. fairyhedgehog
said...I have to say that as it was a Fairy Tale I had hoped for a
much more upbeat ending. (Is it all right to talk about the ending or
should I not do that in case it spoils it for ril?) ril said...Don't worry. I'm reading purely as an academic exercise, and to impress my peers. Robin S.
said...Ha! ril - well, in that case, if you don't mind hearing about
the ending, I thought it worked well, in that it was a circling back, or
a journeying on, maybe, with the beginning of the novel. I liked that -
I liked the open 'resolution'. fairyhedgehog
said...One thing that made it a difficult read for me was not knowing
who I could sympathise with. I didn't know if it was the story of three
friends, or of one of the friends, or of Akbar...It didn't seem to be
the story of any of the women, except briefly BuffySquirrel
said...There was one point where I thought we might get one of the
women's stories...forget where, exactly, but early on, obviously! sylvia said...I loved the ending hugely. The return to real-world logic but then swirled with the fantastical one last time. ril said...Perhaps it was back when you thought the blond haired guy was a woman? BuffySquirrel
said...Lol, Ril, maybe it was! I dunno, that was just one of those
fleeting thoughts...perhaps crediting Rushdie with too much plot
ingenuity. sylvia said...It's definitely never a woman's story - all of the women are only ever as seen (fantasized) by the men. BuffySquirrel
said...I think Sylvia has definitely hit on what made it so annoying
for me.The enchantress may have more of a role past the point where it
was destroy the book or stop reading, but in what I read, she was only
acting through a man. Dave F. said...It didn't seem to be the story of any of the women, except briefly. I
disagree. I think it all about two women - the enchantress and Johdha
and their effects on a small piece of history.Without the Enchantress,
there would be no history of Akbar. She's both his past and future. sylvia
said...I think the difference is whether it's a story about a woman
(which it was) or of a woman (which it wasn't).In the same way that
Dreamer's of the Day was about Laurence of Arabia but it wasn't his
story. BuffySquirrel
said...*ponders skipping to Book 3* I was going to say, at least
Lawrence didn't have to work in a brothel...and then I thought, maybe
he'd've liked to. fairyhedgehog
said...Her main characteristic was the pragmatism shown by her
willingness to go with whoever was the victor in a battle - for most of
the book, at least. Evil Editor said...But she didn't take advantage of the opportunity to escape when it meant losing her true love. BuffySquirrel said...Ah, cos in that case pragmatism wouldn't have served the plot. Evil Editor
said...I liked the ending. The part where Mogor explains who he is and
I'm thinking, Aha, amazing, and then Akbar says, Not so fast, I have
another theory, and his fits equally well, and we're left wondering. sylvia
said...I definitely felt that the (bits of) knowledge I had of
Florence at that time helped me to remain grounded in the story. I
looked up Akbar on Wiki towards the end :) Robin S.
said...Towards the end of the novel, when the discussion turns to the
New World being discovered by Europeans, the concept of time is
beautifully drawn.Pg. 328."The locals, those few who mastered European
languages, confirmed that theirs was a world without change, a place of
stasis, outside time, they said, and that was the way they preferred it
to be. It was possible, and there were philosophers who argued the point
vociferously, that time had been brought to Mundus Novus by the
European voyagers and settler, along with various diseases."What makes
this gorgeously drawn prose for me is that there's the tall tale or
feeling drawn of workd-without-time, and then the uppity feel of Euros
'starting' time, and then the stark reality that in a way, they did,
with their 'various diseases'. that's a beautifully drawn timeline, not
of journalistic reality, but of the way it might have felt, as it was
lived. fairyhedgehog
said...I think that whole passage for me was part of the Fairy Tale
telling of the story. I felt like I shouldn't be asking "is it true?" in
the literal sense but seeing more as myth. Robin S. said...I don't think it was literally true as much as it was felt, buff. That nothing changed and that was the world. fairyhedgehog
said...I didn't enjoy the ending because too much had been lost by
then and too many of the characters I was following had died. ril said......Maybe he's testing, to see if anybody actually is reading? BuffySquirrel said...It would be a shame if he had started pulling punches. After all the effort that went into keeping him alive. Robin S.
said...Yeah, EE - I thought about the religions as well.On page 220
there's a good one - that "Whatever is decreed by God will occur" stuff.
It still goes on, even though it's not PC to speak of it, (so I
will).My ex was in the desert of the Middle East for a while - and he
had guys training mechanics - from the region. It wasn't going too well,
though, because they kept saying no matter what they did to the
engines, etc., it wouldn't matter, because it was the will of God that
decided whether or not a plane would fly...Don't even get me started. ril said...A quick Google for "G K Chesterton & mysogyny", suggests we'll be on safe territory next month...- ril said...Not at all. Just like to be prepared.
-
BuffySquirrel
said...Hmm, first hit for Salman Rushdie + misogyny: This article
explores the function of misogyny in Salman Rushdie's Midnight's
Children (1981), an aspect of the novel which is often too easily
interpreted as a shortcoming on Rushdie's part rather than as a
conscious and multi-layered strategy. The article identifies two main
trajectories of the theme of female monstrosity, one aimed at
criticizing the nation's unwillingness to grant women an equal status
and the other designed to demonize Indira Gandhi.
- fairyhedgehog said...That's a bit beyond me, Buffy. I did feel that the Enchantress had women mainly as adjuncts to men although I think there were hints that they led their own complex lives. A bit like humans writing about cats, maybe.
- BuffySquirrel
said...I think the article would be beyond me, too. And that's just
quoting from the abstract. Also, I gave up on Midnight's Children after
about three lines! lol
- Evil Editor said...1981? Man he must be getting old. So old he's regressing. This time a fairy tale, next time a nursery rhyme. Writing Exercise: create a nursery rhyme in the style of Salman Rushdie.
- BuffySquirrel said...Mary had a little lambOr rather it had herShe's just an extension of the lambShe's there to comb its fur
- Sylvia said... I don't think I could do it but I'd LOVE to read the submissions
- Robin S. said...I like these Saturday morning chats. More people can attend, it seems.
- ril said...Would any of you have read this book if it were not for the Book Chat?
- Robin S. said...No, ril, I'd never have picked it up. You?
- BuffySquirrel said...Definitely not, Ril. Indeed, I haven't read it now.
- Robin S.
said...By the way, gutenberg.org has Akbar, Emperor of India - one of
Rushdie's sources for his novel.(I don't know about you all, but this
geek reads the bibliography every single time.)
- ril said...No. I was extremely prejudiced against trying Rushdie's work.The "function" of misogyny? Interesting choice of words...
- Robin S.
said...Exactly how I feel, FH. I won't forget it either. It was worth
the slog through - and I have to say, most books I pick up casually go
in one 'brain ear' and out the other. Kind of makes me wonder why I
bother with them at all.
- fairyhedgehog
said...Oh, and being able to get to the book chat was a good
incentive. This is a good time for me if I don't get confused about the
hour.
- ril said...I suspect many of the people who blurbed on the cover didn't read it either. "...whirlwind of a narrative," anyone?
- Robin S.
said...No way was this a whirlwind of a narrative. It was a tent slog
through the desert without water, at times, spaced between long and
wondrous oases.
-
- fairyhedgehog
said...Some of the oases were indeed wondrous. I'm left with pictures
in my mind of jewels and palaces and exotice places but I really had to
work to get there.
-
sylvia
said...Yes. I was trying to work out a way of explaining how it didn't
continually get better but that it felt somehow stepped. This is it.
- Robin S. said...Also, Akbar was one of the few Mughals, if not the only, who openly practiced religious tolerance. Wonder if that's why Rushdie chose him as a grounding point for the novel. No Brits have mentioned the Elizabeth correspondence. I thought that was amusing.
BuffySquirrel said...I remember someone describing London as "exotic". I nearly choked. Guess it's all in where you're coming from. - Robin S. said...I agree, Buff. Exotic is everyone's own particular 'little red wagon'.
- BuffySquirrel said...I suppose the correspondence with Elizabeth slipped my mind cos it was so silly.
- fairyhedgehog said...I'd forgotten about it but it was amusing. All part of people misjudging what is real and what isn't.
- BuffySquirrel said...Hmm, Elizabeth not existing leaves us with a huge hole in our history :D.
-
ril said...And Shakespeare in Love would just not be the same movie.
- Robin S. said...Yes - the Elizabeth section was good, for me. It grounded me in something I at least had a passing knowledge of - so that the Akbar story then made sense, from my point of view - historically. He was 'them' - part of history I didn't hear anything about until the last decade or so.
- fairyhedgehog
said...I see what you mean, Robin, but somehow I liked being immersed
in Akbar's world without trying to work out how it fit into any history
I'd ever known. It was like being in a galaxy far, far away, or in any
story that starts "Once Upon A Time".The only history that really
impinged on me was Machiavelli and I couldn't remember how he fit in. I
should have googled.
- Robin S.
said...I thought a Brit might also have mentioned pg. 96 - "The
English had no future on this earth," he told himself..." Especially
considering the way things went.
- ril said...Proof indeed of the fantasical nature of the tale.
- BuffySquirrel said...We're used to being dismissed, though.
- fairyhedgehog said...It gave me a small, wry smile. Just a small one, though.
- Robin S.
said...Maybe it's because I'm in your place quite a bit, but always a
visitor, that I find it extraordinary how such a small island nation was
able to control such a vast amount of the planet for so long.
- fairyhedgehog said...It seems quite normal to me. Maybe that's a problem...
- BuffySquirrel said...And who knows? The future is still in the future, after all.
- Robin S. said...No - not a problem. It's because you're 'from there', don't you think?Anyway, the last time I was there, one of my British relatives remarked that we - the Americans - think we're like the Brits because of the English language - when, really, other than language, we're worlds apart. It's made me think, ever since. And I think that's another thing about this book - it plops you out-of-culture and out-of-known-context, if you're Western, and you look at life from a different persective . . . if you stick it out and make it through.
- ril said...Looks like the party's over. Off to read another sentence or two of the Enchantress, and then sleep...
